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Question Title	Posted By	Question Date
Is there danger in having a non-priest llay on hands?	amy	Friday, August 9, 2013
Question: Heelo! I am a woman who has been in formation to become a religious sister and am recently out of the cloister and working with my bishop and spiritual director to begin a community of women to live our baptismal promises and see what it is that God may draw forth from that. So in essence, I am in discernment, but sort of like a sister-without-a-community-until-it-is-created, rather than a woman-looking-for-one. This seems important given the nature of my question for you. When I began the road to of entering a convent, my first spiritual director who had a particular deliverance ministry emerging in his vocation and my superior sister formator both directed me to not let anyone pray "over" me or "lay-hands" on me, as a general rule, reserving these forms of deliverance for an ordained minister of our Church. I was told that if someone tries to pray "over" me to take their hands and ask them to pray "with" me. The basic understanding for this is that many diabolic transference happens from the best intentioned persons unawares. I was comfortable with this as it seemed quite sensible. Also, in those early days of formation, I made a general confession and went through a full deliverance rite with the priest and some sisters present. It was a powerful experience. Not dramatic or over emotional, but extremely solid and and clarifying. We all witnessed the deadly things that had fastened to me in my prior lifestyle be extricated from my soul and I left a profoundly healed woman, lighter, brighter, and in great joy and peace. Shortly after that, I entered a Carmelite cloister and it seemed certain God had "cleared out" my soul to prepare me for this next step in this vocation. I am continually amazed at the steps he puts in place that I could compose this path on my own even if I wanted to! :) Now. It has been a few years since then. I was in Carmel for two years and have been out for one now. I am currently in this process of forming this new group, whatever it is that Our Lord will create, and actively striving to stay obedient to previous directions given to me in the spirit of trusting that no direction should be dispensed with of my own volition, until a superior advises me. This is my commitment to my vocation. Recently there are some problems at the church I am working at. We have a pastor who is a survivor of intense trauma and we suspect that he is struggling on some personal level. This is our "assumed" explanation for some of his erratic and at times cruel or harsh treatment of parishioners and staff, including myself. Personally, I take it all as grace, and offer my own distress at mistreatment in exchange for a healing and hope in his vocation. Its not something I think appropriate to discuss at length with people at this point as I take it to prayer and to my current Spiritual director. (different from the one previously mentioned as I am in a different diocese now) To get to the point of my question, there is an intercessory prayer group here that I highly respect for the depth and commitment of the prayer they do. They believe they are commissioned for a special ministry and it takes the form of charismatic prayer in terms of speaking in tongues and laying on of hands. They have had many confirmations over the years that this is the path Our Lord wants them on and I expect this is likely to be true. Its not mine to judge, but I do perceive these to be hearty, wholesome, centered in Christ and grounded people. They want to pray over the staff members who had had challenges with the pastor as a way of bringing deliverance to what they are suspecting may be a diabolical interference in the life of the parish. They want me to come tomorrow so they can pray over me, and lay on hands, etc. I believe that by my vocation and previous direction,this would be disobedient to how I have been directed. When I mentioned this I was told by a wonderful deacon who leads the group that it would be problematic, as if I was somehow seeing myself as better than other people. And that maybe after I saw how it was happening with other people I would want to change my mind. I explained that if I did change my mind it would be more suspect because I would be breaking with obedience, and this would not be a show of humility but rather stepping out of line with my calling. What does your experience tell you about such a dynamic? My previous spiritual director, who is now an exorcist and a great resource for this question happens to be on retreat, so I feel oddly out in left field and don't want to make this decision without some clerical input. Am I being vain and presumptuous to not want this kind of prayer? Am I justified in my reason being that I don't want to be disobedient, or is it that a fabrication which is incorrect? I understand from what I have seen in deliverance that its best if lay persons pray with people and only ordained persons pray "over." Do you think there is merit or actual canonical support for this view? Firstly, I recognize that in writing this I am experiencing discomfort, and that is enough for my no to be acceptable. But are these other points meritorious or ??? Thank you kindly for any input or perspective you have on this! Is there any reference you may have to help me explain this to others? Right now all I have is that "my director told me years ago to not do this." God reward you and bless you in your health and ministry. You will be in my heart of prayer ! In the hearts of Jesus and Mary your sister ami +++ ps - something is funny with your web form under "contact us" I tried to submit this about 10 times and the captcha code kept saying I was wrong, where 8 of the 10 times Im pretty sure I could read it clearly...
Question Answered by Bro. Ignatius Mary, OMSM(r), CCL, LTh, DD, LNDC Dear Amy: I praise God for your vocation and will pray for you in the formation of a new community. Forming a new community is extremely difficult and one that will usually attract the harassment of the devil, both through spiritual means and by using people. As to laying on of hands, one must always been very careful about doing this or allowing it to be done to oneself. It is true that demonic transference can take place. Except when a priest lays on hands during the Sacrament of Anointing, the Rite of Exorcism, or in prayers reserved to priests where laying on of hands of part of the rubrics, it can be just as dangerous when a priest lays on hands in these extra-Sacramental situations, such as deliverance -- especially a so-called charismatic priest. I have had to pick up the pieces of more than one poor soul who has been harmed by charismatic priests. If the laying of hands is done with the permission of the person, and the person doing the laying of hands is doing it with proper theology, intention, purpose, and methodology then there is nothing wrong with laity doing this as long as how they do it does not too closely resemble the gestures of what a priest does in the Sacraments or in prayers reserved to priests. By the way, I am talking about a single person laying on hands, not a crowd doing so. It is common among charismatic circles to have the whole prayer team laying hands on the person. That is never to be done. The charismatic renewal has a profound history of abusing the laying on of hands and of arrogantly thinking they are qualified to do deliverance. No one should be doing deliverance as an apostolate unless they are trained by competent people. As a whole the Charismatic Renewal is decidedly unqualified to do this apostolate. Training in deliverance is far, far more than knowing some prayers and a little theology. To do deliverance properly is a multi-disciplinary endeavor. One needs to know some psychology, psychiatry, medicine, counseling techniques, investigative techniques, interviewing skills, critical thinking skills, logic, and even some physics. A weekend or week long training is sorely inadequate. Our training academy is the most extensive in the world. To graduate as a deliverance counselor with us takes around three years of academics and clinical training, an year-long internship, and after graduation an additional three years of residency, before one is truly ready to go out and form their own apostolate, if that is what they want to do. The remarks of this charismatic deacon that you mentioned is very troubling. His arrogance is typical among the charismatics. He has no business trying to convince you to break what you perceive as an obligation of obedience, especially about something that is not even needed in doing deliverance. Christ wants our obedience more than our sacrifice. Frankly, given that deacon's attitude, I would advise you to have nothing to do with that group. While laying on hands, in the right context, with the right understanding and theology, and in the right manner can be done by laity, laying on hands is NEVER absolutely needed in deliverance. Speaking in tongues is another issue. This practice is profoundly dangerous and totally unnecessary. We have an extensive essay that evaluates the pros and cons of the Charismatic Renewal, including the issue of speaking in tongues, a practice that is often counterfeit, even though the "speaker" does not realize that. In the essay we relate a couple of stories by priests who discovered people speaking in tongues that were cursing God and did not know it, or were otherwise exercising false gifts. St. Paul said, "... I would rather speak five words with my mind, in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue" (1 Cor 14:19). There are thousands of ways in which tongues can be faked, counterfeited by the devil, or misused. How can we know, when we do not understand what is said? There is patently no valid reason to use tongues in deliverance, and hundreds of arguments to show its danger. I would advise that you read and study that document before even thinking about working with a charismatic group: Charism Gifts Building Up the Church This essay is actually written into our Rule of St. Michael, the rule of life for the Oblates and Missioners of St. Michael. God Bless, Bro. Ignatius Mary P.S. I do not know which Contact Form you used, but the one that should be used is at: http://saint-mike.org/main/contact I just tested it and it is working. For information on how to receive help see our Help page. We suggest that before contacting us directly for help you try the Seven Steps to Self-Deliverance. These self-help steps will often resolve the problem. Also our Spiritual Warfare Prayer Catalog contains many prayers that may be helpful. If needed you can ask for a Personal Consultation.

Question Title

Posted By

Question Date

Is there danger in having a non-priest llay on hands?

amy

Friday, August 9, 2013

Question:

Heelo! I am a woman who has been in formation to become a religious sister and am recently out of the cloister and working with my bishop and spiritual director to begin a community of women to live our baptismal promises and see what it is that God may draw forth from that. So in essence, I am in discernment, but sort of like a sister-without-a-community-until-it-is-created, rather than a woman-looking-for-one.

This seems important given the nature of my question for you.

When I began the road to of entering a convent, my first spiritual director who had a particular deliverance ministry emerging in his vocation and my superior sister formator both directed me to not let anyone pray "over" me or "lay-hands" on me, as a general rule, reserving these forms of deliverance for an ordained minister of our Church. I was told that if someone tries to pray "over" me to take their hands and ask them to pray "with" me. The basic understanding for this is that many diabolic transference happens from the best intentioned persons unawares. I was comfortable with this as it seemed quite sensible.

Also, in those early days of formation, I made a general confession and went through a full deliverance rite with the priest and some sisters present. It was a powerful experience. Not dramatic or over emotional, but extremely solid and and clarifying. We all witnessed the deadly things that had fastened to me in my prior lifestyle be extricated from my soul and I left a profoundly healed woman, lighter, brighter, and in great joy and peace. Shortly after that, I entered a Carmelite cloister and it seemed certain God had "cleared out" my soul to prepare me for this next step in this vocation. I am continually amazed at the steps he puts in place that I could compose this path on my own even if I wanted to! :)

Now. It has been a few years since then. I was in Carmel for two years and have been out for one now. I am currently in this process of forming this new group, whatever it is that Our Lord will create, and actively striving to stay obedient to previous directions given to me in the spirit of trusting that no direction should be dispensed with of my own volition, until a superior advises me. This is my commitment to my vocation.

Recently there are some problems at the church I am working at. We have a pastor who is a survivor of intense trauma and we suspect that he is struggling on some personal level. This is our "assumed" explanation for some of his erratic and at times cruel or harsh treatment of parishioners and staff, including myself. Personally, I take it all as grace, and offer my own distress at mistreatment in exchange for a healing and hope in his vocation. Its not something I think appropriate to discuss at length with people at this point as I take it to prayer and to my current Spiritual director. (different from the one previously mentioned as I am in a different diocese now)

To get to the point of my question, there is an intercessory prayer group here that I highly respect for the depth and commitment of the prayer they do. They believe they are commissioned for a special ministry and it takes the form of charismatic prayer in terms of speaking in tongues and laying on of hands. They have had many confirmations over the years that this is the path Our Lord wants them on and I expect this is likely to be true. Its not mine to judge, but I do perceive these to be hearty, wholesome, centered in Christ and grounded people. They want to pray over the staff members who had had challenges with the pastor as a way of bringing deliverance to what they are suspecting may be a diabolical interference in the life of the parish. They want me to come tomorrow so they can pray over me, and lay on hands, etc.

I believe that by my vocation and previous direction,this would be disobedient to how I have been directed. When I mentioned this I was told by a wonderful deacon who leads the group that it would be problematic, as if I was somehow seeing myself as better than other people. And that maybe after I saw how it was happening with other people I would want to change my mind. I explained that if I did change my mind it would be more suspect because I would be breaking with obedience, and this would not be a show of humility but rather stepping out of line with my calling.

What does your experience tell you about such a dynamic? My previous spiritual director, who is now an exorcist and a great resource for this question happens to be on retreat, so I feel oddly out in left field and don't want to make this decision without some clerical input. Am I being vain and presumptuous to not want this kind of prayer? Am I justified in my reason being that I don't want to be disobedient, or is it that a fabrication which is incorrect? I understand from what I have seen in deliverance that its best if lay persons pray with people and only ordained persons pray "over." Do you think there is merit or actual canonical support for this view?

Firstly, I recognize that in writing this I am experiencing discomfort, and that is enough for my no to be acceptable. But are these other points meritorious or ???

Thank you kindly for any input or perspective you have on this! Is there any reference you may have to help me explain this to others? Right now all I have is that "my director told me years ago to not do this."

God reward you and bless you in your health and ministry. You will be in my heart of prayer !

In the hearts of Jesus and Mary
your sister ami
+++

ps - something is funny with your web form under "contact us" I tried to submit this about 10 times and the captcha code kept saying I was wrong, where 8 of the 10 times Im pretty sure I could read it clearly...

Question Answered by Bro. Ignatius Mary, OMSM(r), CCL, LTh, DD, LNDC

Dear Amy:

I praise God for your vocation and will pray for you in the formation of a new community. Forming a new community is extremely difficult and one that will usually attract the harassment of the devil, both through spiritual means and by using people.

As to laying on of hands, one must always been very careful about doing this or allowing it to be done to oneself. It is true that demonic transference can take place. Except when a priest lays on hands during the Sacrament of Anointing, the Rite of Exorcism, or in prayers reserved to priests where laying on of hands of part of the rubrics, it can be just as dangerous when a priest lays on hands in these extra-Sacramental situations, such as deliverance -- especially a so-called charismatic priest. I have had to pick up the pieces of more than one poor soul who has been harmed by charismatic priests.

If the laying of hands is done with the permission of the person, and the person doing the laying of hands is doing it with proper theology, intention, purpose, and methodology then there is nothing wrong with laity doing this as long as how they do it does not too closely resemble the gestures of what a priest does in the Sacraments or in prayers reserved to priests. By the way, I am talking about a single person laying on hands, not a crowd doing so. It is common among charismatic circles to have the whole prayer team laying hands on the person. That is never to be done.

The charismatic renewal has a profound history of abusing the laying on of hands and of arrogantly thinking they are qualified to do deliverance. No one should be doing deliverance as an apostolate unless they are trained by competent people. As a whole the Charismatic Renewal is decidedly unqualified to do this apostolate.

Training in deliverance is far, far more than knowing some prayers and a little theology. To do deliverance properly is a multi-disciplinary endeavor. One needs to know some psychology, psychiatry, medicine, counseling techniques, investigative techniques, interviewing skills, critical thinking skills, logic, and even some physics. A weekend or week long training is sorely inadequate.

Our training academy is the most extensive in the world. To graduate as a deliverance counselor with us takes around three years of academics and clinical training, an year-long internship, and after graduation an additional three years of residency, before one is truly ready to go out and form their own apostolate, if that is what they want to do.

The remarks of this charismatic deacon that you mentioned is very troubling. His arrogance is typical among the charismatics. He has no business trying to convince you to break what you perceive as an obligation of obedience, especially about something that is not even needed in doing deliverance. Christ wants our obedience more than our sacrifice. Frankly, given that deacon's attitude, I would advise you to have nothing to do with that group.

While laying on hands, in the right context, with the right understanding and theology, and in the right manner can be done by laity, laying on hands is NEVER absolutely needed in deliverance.

Speaking in tongues is another issue. This practice is profoundly dangerous and totally unnecessary. We have an extensive essay that evaluates the pros and cons of the Charismatic Renewal, including the issue of speaking in tongues, a practice that is often counterfeit, even though the "speaker" does not realize that. In the essay we relate a couple of stories by priests who discovered people speaking in tongues that were cursing God and did not know it, or were otherwise exercising false gifts. St. Paul said, "... I would rather speak five words with my mind, in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue" (1 Cor 14:19).

There are thousands of ways in which tongues can be faked, counterfeited by the devil, or misused. How can we know, when we do not understand what is said? There is patently no valid reason to use tongues in deliverance, and hundreds of arguments to show its danger.

I would advise that you read and study that document before even thinking about working with a charismatic group: Charism Gifts Building Up the Church

This essay is actually written into our Rule of St. Michael, the rule of life for the Oblates and Missioners of St. Michael.

God Bless,
Bro. Ignatius Mary

P.S. I do not know which Contact Form you used, but the one that should be used is at: http://saint-mike.org/main/contact I just tested it and it is working.

For information on how to receive help see our Help page. We suggest that before contacting us directly for help you try the Seven Steps to Self-Deliverance. These self-help steps will often resolve the problem. Also our Spiritual Warfare Prayer Catalog contains many prayers that may be helpful. If needed you can ask for a Personal Consultation.